Sunday 27 January 2013
USEPLANE WEBCHAT
Sunday 20 January 2013
Why Speak Latin?
Please go to the Latinum Website, at
Latinum.org.uk
Note; The '4 percenters' referred to in the letters below are those few students who can learn a language through abstract means alone - verb charts and memorising declensions and grammatical forms, with minimal or no exposure to the spoken form of the language. Most traditional Latin programs select FOR these students, and wean out the rest.
ORIGINAL POST
Sodales,
I would consider myself a good translator of Latin. I spent many years translating Latin into English even up to the Phd level. However, I am feeling like my attempts to speak Latin in my class have improved my Latin already. Do others find this true?
For example, I always translated very passively. I knew what words meant and I could translate them in their contexts into accurate English but I never really thought about how the word was used. This has changed for me with my speaking of Latin. I am so amazed. I am fully on the side of speak to learn vs. learn to speak.
Can someone validate these feelings for me? Have you felt this way?
Teacher X PhD
RESPONSE 1
I can validate that experience by my own, for sure. In fact, in all the years that I've been associated with speaking Latin and teaching Latin with active, comprehensible input methods, I have not found anyone with an experience contrary to this. (There may be someone, but I've never heard from them).
Truth be told, as I look back, I realize that I always approached translating a passage with a little anxiety. That anxiety is gone now as I pick up an unseen text and begin to read it. I also realized somewhere along the way that reading Latin is very different from what most of us thought we were doing. We were actually translating Latin, even speed translating Latin in our heads when we used to say we were "reading" Latin. Speaking Latin moved me into a place where I can read the Latin words and they mean something in my head without having to translate them into English. I still run up against passages that require several attempts, but, hey, that's true in English, too.
Teacher X PhD
RESPONSE 2
Yes, totally! And not only in Latin: I'm having the same experiences
in Greek and Sanskrit, the other languages I teach. The more I *use*
the language -- speaking in class, writing up stories for quizzes or
handouts, encouraging the students to speak even a little -- the easier
it gets to read it.
Of course it's hard and a bit scary: I had one intensive summer course
plus one graduate class, entirely translation-focused, as my prior
experience in Sanskrit before I began teaching it. I had *no* active
vocabulary, *no* facility with grammar. I scripted everything starting
with "hello, class." Even after a few years, I'm still writing out far
more notes for myself than I would in a Latin class -- but fewer than in
the past. Still, I'd never go back to translation-based classes.
in Greek and Sanskrit, the other languages I teach. The more I *use*
the language -- speaking in class, writing up stories for quizzes or
handouts, encouraging the students to speak even a little -- the easier
it gets to read it.
Of course it's hard and a bit scary: I had one intensive summer course
plus one graduate class, entirely translation-focused, as my prior
experience in Sanskrit before I began teaching it. I had *no* active
vocabulary, *no* facility with grammar. I scripted everything starting
with "hello, class." Even after a few years, I'm still writing out far
more notes for myself than I would in a Latin class -- but fewer than in
the past. Still, I'd never go back to translation-based classes.
Teacher X PhD
RESPONSE 3
I agree 100%. I often tell people that I feel I didn't really begin to know Latin until beginning to hear and speak it. That first happened at the Kentucky Conventiculum in 2001. Your and others' efforts and success at speaking Latin with your classes without the benefit of first experiencing a Conventiculum (or similar event) are most impressive. I don't think I could have done that!
Teacher X
RESPONSE 4
I agree also. I have always held that Latin is a language, and that reading it without speaking it is like reading sheet music which one never plays or sings.
Granted we do not always do it perfectly. But the first time I sing a new piece of music, I do not sing it perfectly. The most important thing is the singing, not the perfection.
Teacher X
RESPONSE 4
Great comments everyone and I certainly agree too, especially with Xs comment about being less passive about our reading and understanding of Latin words. When we actually start communicating with our students in Latin, we tend to check in on words and learn nuances that we did not know before. I find myself doing this throughout my day, constantly checking Glossa or a dictionary to make sure I'm using a word correctly of confirm accent or pronunciation, etc. I don't involve the kids in this most of the time, but it is for their benefit of course because as I improve my own Latinity I also improve theirs as well when I speak better for them.
I wanted to clarify a phrase X used too - He used the phrase "speak to learn" which I have understood is associated with the Rassias method. Although I know this is probably a detail for most, for me this phrase is loaded with the idea that producing the language will help one acquire the language. For me, in my current understanding of CI and Stephen Krashen, I do not agree that speaking a new language as a primary exercise in the language helps the majority of humans acquire language well.
I am believing more and more (as I understand Krashen) that the main thing that helps most humans acquire language is receiving massive amounts of comprehensible input (oral or legible). I believe this more and more especially this year as I have made a commitment to not force oral production of any students. They are speaking on a voluntary basis when their brain is ready and this seems to be working well. The respect that students have given me for this practice is high.
For me it all boils down to this: my job is to deliver as much Comprehensible Input as possible and let them speak as they feel ready. If someone never speaks the first year, but I know that they understand me fully via non-verbal cues or English responses, I am very happy with this. They will speak when ready.
I don't think this negates what you are saying X, and probably for a lot of us 4 percenters Latin teachers out there the only place to start is by speaking (that's what I had to do). And that works too (even if not always very efficiently), but if I can give my students CI first and let them speak when ready, I will choose this every time.
And as an aside, I also notice that the "acquisition precedes production" rule helps classroom discipline better too. Asking my kids to do what is reasonable of their brains both builds trust and respect for everyone in the class. Like I said before, I have sensed that students respect me and my class much more this year and I believe my commitment to encourage but not force production has much to do with this.
This concept has been huge for me this year and that's why I wanted to share. Thanks all!
I wanted to clarify a phrase X used too - He used the phrase "speak to learn" which I have understood is associated with the Rassias method. Although I know this is probably a detail for most, for me this phrase is loaded with the idea that producing the language will help one acquire the language. For me, in my current understanding of CI and Stephen Krashen, I do not agree that speaking a new language as a primary exercise in the language helps the majority of humans acquire language well.
I am believing more and more (as I understand Krashen) that the main thing that helps most humans acquire language is receiving massive amounts of comprehensible input (oral or legible). I believe this more and more especially this year as I have made a commitment to not force oral production of any students. They are speaking on a voluntary basis when their brain is ready and this seems to be working well. The respect that students have given me for this practice is high.
For me it all boils down to this: my job is to deliver as much Comprehensible Input as possible and let them speak as they feel ready. If someone never speaks the first year, but I know that they understand me fully via non-verbal cues or English responses, I am very happy with this. They will speak when ready.
I don't think this negates what you are saying X, and probably for a lot of us 4 percenters Latin teachers out there the only place to start is by speaking (that's what I had to do). And that works too (even if not always very efficiently), but if I can give my students CI first and let them speak when ready, I will choose this every time.
And as an aside, I also notice that the "acquisition precedes production" rule helps classroom discipline better too. Asking my kids to do what is reasonable of their brains both builds trust and respect for everyone in the class. Like I said before, I have sensed that students respect me and my class much more this year and I believe my commitment to encourage but not force production has much to do with this.
This concept has been huge for me this year and that's why I wanted to share. Thanks all!
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